Frequently Asked Questions and Answers.
We receive letters and e-mails regularly and the frequently asked questions we
are asked are very interesting. The replies below provide useful information and
are well worth reading.
FIXED DISH QUESTIONS
QUESTION F1
How much difference do low noise LNBs make and why do
some LNBs have a C120 flange and a feedhorn? Is there much difference
between the efficiency of different makes and types of dish?
AND,
How can I get more signal from my dish? Would a better LNB
help or a more sensitive receiver?
AND,
Problems with signal through trees.
AND,
Why does my lower noise LNB produce less signal?
ANSWER F1 -
Dish size is everything.
Dish size is everything. LNBs only have a very very very very .... small effect as does receiver
sensitivity. Dish size is everything! Going from a 0.9dB to a 0.1dB does not have the effect of
5mm of dish diameter! and then the lower noise LNB will only help in good weather, virtually no
effect in bad weather. Bigger dishes provide more signal in all weathers. BUT .. if the dish size
cannot be increased for any reason, the lower noise LNB can help a small amount and it MIGHT be
just enough to pull in a difficult to receive channel that was just coming in but maybe pixilation or
freezing (a common fault caused usually by lack of signal) was a problem and may be stopped.
0.1dB LNBs! To achieve 0.1dBs over a significant frequency range, manufacturers would need super
cooling to slow the electrons down! Simply not possible at normal temperatures in the UK. It may
well be the case that the new 0.1dB LNBs have the lowest noise figures. They are very good LNBs.
Possibly even be the best, but they really can't be as low as 0.1dB or 0.2dB over any kind of
useful frequency range if at all. Some of us are getting old! I can still remember - when I was a
kid - back in the late 1950s early 1960s - not sure when - being told you could get a great picture
on the TV with an aerial shaped like a PLANT POT that could be stood on top of the TV.
(even with a plastic plant inside it!) We all now know that what was really needed was a decent
sized aerial on the roof (and preferably not in the loft - which can produce reflections!
Many people would like technology without wires in sealed boxes (like my wife, she will insist
on having the stuff in cabinets with doors on. This is better known as an cooking the technology
in an oven as it stops ventilation and creates a fire risks).
Many also want the smallest possible dish so the question is - "find an alternative solution to
getting more signal" BUT ... no matter how much people might want to .....
YOU CAN'T CHANGE THE LAWS OF PHYSICS! "Dish size is everything." It is a question that we hear
every day and sometimes customer think that if they ask the question in 4 or 5 different ways, they
will eventually hear a different answer. To repeat - Dish size is everything! Dish size is everything!
Dish efficiency.
This can be important. Especially among large dishes. The Andrews (Channel Master) 1.8m and 2.4m have a
very high gain due to very good design. Offset should be more efficient than prime focus if it is a
specialist well designed dish (not always true with smaller mass produced dishes). Webbed resin type plastic
is a perfect shape from leaving the factory to arriving at the customer. Metal petalised prime focus dishes
can be warped when they are new due to bad assembly or damage and tend to be very in-efficient.
See the Andrews (Channel Master) dishes on the
fixed dishes page and
motorised dishes page
for very high quality resin type perfect shaped dish products.
Matched feedhorns can pull in more signal than better LNBs. See below.
Feedhorns.
A normal 40 mm clamp LNB has an integral offset feedhorn for offset dishes like the
Triax dishes (see offset dishes on the
dishes page )
A Prime focus dish like the Unicorn (see an example of focus dishes on the
C Band LNBs page
A Prime focus dish should have its own feedhorn with "scalar rings" on one side and a
C120 flange on the other. See the prime focus feedhorns shown on the
Feedhorns
page
i.e. the Universal Feed and the Invacom feed, here you should use the C120 flange LNB which fits the Prime
Focus feed. If a prime focus dish does not have a proper feedhorn then it should have one.
The scalar rings on a prime focus feedhorn are a very important part of the design.
The feedhorn should really be designed and made by the dish manufacturer for a perfect match
but if this is not known or possible, fit a the
"universal feedhorn" on the feedhorns
page This will be the
best match possible. This kit only requires you to have the 3 feed support arms. The boss etc
is all in the kit.
The Andrews (Channel Master) offset feedhorn.
We have supplied this feed to customers who have found it made a worthwhile improvement.
If an LNB feed is not a perfect match, like a standard 40mm clamp LNB, it may illuminate (say) 1.1m
of a 1.2m dish. (less signal) OR, It may (try to) illuminate 1.3m of dish. This will cause infrared
(noise) to be picked up round the edges. The result is a poor signal to noise ratio. (poor picture)
Feedback from customers suggest that the matched feed on a Channel Master 1.2 as far west as Belfast
brought in all of Sirius. Before it was fitted this was not possible. More feedback suggested it can
make a difference in southern Spain For Sky TV and the BBC on an Andrews 1.8m dish and on the 2.4m Andrews
(Channel Master) dish from the Spanish offshore islands.
Receiver sensitivity.
This has only a very small effect on the signal. Most CI and free to air receivers are sensitive anyway.
Some Sky digiboxes, however, do not have particularly sensitive tuners. Not a problem in the UK but
in Spain a sensitive satellite receiver can help a little.
More information about LNBs.
An LNB is the box of electronics on the end of the dish boom arm. It acts like a aerial masthead
amplifier. The signal (microwaves) reflect off the dish and into the feedhorn to the LNB.
Here it is amplified and the frequency is lowered. The lower the noise figure the better.
i.e. in simple terms, it pulls in the signal better. The signal is then sent down the coaxial cable to the
satellite receiver. Quality digital cable should be used. (not CT100 or RG6)
See our
Satellite Cable for good digital cable. Also see
Twin satellite Cable and
4 LNB (quad or quatro) satellite Cable
A universal LNB covers the KU band from 10700 to 12750Ghz with LO frequencies of 9750 and 10600.
There are
Single LNBs, Twin
LNBs, Quad LNBs, Octo
LNBs and
Quatro LNBs. Single have one output,
twin - two outputs, quad - 4 outputs and Octo - 8 outputs. All outputs are the same and are equivalent to
a single LNB. A twin LNB could be used for two single tuner satellite receivers or a twin tuner satellite receiver
Quatro LNBs have 4 outputs and they are all different. Quatro LNBs can only be used with
multiswitches.
There are also 40mm clamp LNBs and C120 LNBs. This refers to the way they fit on a dish. A 40mm LNB has an
integral offset feedhorn and fits to the most common types of offset dishes.
C120 flange LNBs fit on a separate feedhorn and could be used on either offset or prime focus dishes.
They are usually used on specialist high quality dishes.
Both 40mm and C120 LNBs could have single, twin, quad or quatro outputs.
At the moment only 40mm LNBs have octo outputs.
Using a quatro LNB and a multiswitch it is possible to have many more outputs. Even 32 outputs or larger.
A
Sky mini dish LNB uses a fixing that is none standard and a tongue fits into the end of the boom
arm
To conclude,
"Dish area is everything". Other small gains are possible but they are small.
Large increases in signal are possible in all weathers with bigger dishes.
A large gain can be made if a dish is found to be warped and then corrected.
More efficient dishes provide gains but not as much as manufacturers claim they do.
When a manufacturer says their 50cm dish is equivalent to other 60 or 80cm dishes,
This is marketing not science! (Putting it another way this is sales jargon for lying!)
A more efficient dish might have the effect of being as good as a dish 1.0cm diameter bigger
but not the sort of silly claims some manufacturers (or dealers) make.
Small gains are possible with matched feedhorns
Very small gains might be possible with better LNBs or more sensitive tuners but they may be
too small to be significant
If trees are in the way, the signal will not get through them, however, if they are on the fringe
of being in the way - maybe only a thin band of branches and leaves with a good proportion of the
signal actually getting through, a bigger dish will collect more signal and compensate for the problem.
Better LNBs can producing less signal.
This is a very common question.
The important point here is that only a higher signal to noise ratio matters not the total signal level.
The total signal level is shown on a satellite meter and is NOT relevant. Meters do NOT measure the
quality of an LNB as meters are NOT measuring signal to noise ratio (over a frequency band.)
A high (signal) output LNB is good for driving a signal down a long cable (e.g. over 40m)
But a high signal to noise ratio pulls in weaker signals.
Remember - if you are looking at the meter reading in your receiver THAT TELLS YOU NOTHING AT ALL
as far as this particular question is concerned.
It only shows you the total signal and not the difference between the signal and the noise.
A poor 0.9dB (but high output) LNB on a short cable (not much attenuation) can produce
a large reading on a signal strength meter than a low output 0.1dB LNB.
A low output LNB (like an excellent 0.3dB Invacom) on a longer cable can show a low
signal on a signal strength meter.
So what?!! it has nothing at all to do with the ability to pull in a weak channel - nothing at all.
At a technical level, if you draw a graph with a horizontal line representing the signal
and a lower horizontal line representing the noise, the meter is simply showing the level of the
top line. With a high output LNB on a short cable the two lines move up equally BUT the height
difference between the two lines does not alter. With a low output LNB on a longer cable the two lines
move down equally BUT the height difference between them again does not alter. With a lower noise
LNB or bigger dish the height difference between the two lines INCREASES - we say there
is a better SIGNAL TO NOISE RATIO. A signal strength meter does not measure this parameter.
Anyone who says it does, probably has a no technical background in electronics. It is like
saying that the signal to noise ratio of a Hi Fi system is better if you turn up the volume.
Your ears would be equivalent to the signal strength meter and this statement would be
total rubbish as well - but it is an interesting, accurate analogy.
The only test is to check out the capability of pulling in weak channels - do not use the meter
for comparing LNBs. The meter is designed to help to locate the satellite accurately and
not to test the LNB.
QUESTION F2.
Can I receive 3 or 4 satellites on one fixed dish using a bracket?
e.g. Sky, Astra 1 and the Hotbird.
or 2 satellites from one fixed dish, 28E and 13E or 28E and 19E etc?
ANSWER F2.
Questions about getting, 28E, 19E and 13E (i.e. Astra 2 (BBC and Sky) Astra 1 and the Hotbird.) etc.
Up till now, the products to do this have been poor and generally have not worked.
However, Triax have produces a very well engineered 3/4 LNB system bracket that is matched
to their TD range of dishes. The new bracket is made of aluminium and is extremely well made.
It fits perfectly on the TD range of dishes like the TD 78, 88 or 1.1m
We have tested it on the Triax TD 78cm dish. In Newcastle, perfect results were
obtained from 28E , 19E and 13E The 4 LNB bracket with LNBs and Diseqc switch can
be seen on the
accessories page
The TD dishes with the 4 LNB bracket with LNBs and Diseqc switch can be seen on the
2/3
satellite dishes page
The whole dish kit with recommended receivers can be seen on the
3 or 4 satellite system
page
Or check out the
2, 3 and 4 sat menu page.
Here are some more details,
3 Satellites are also possible on our
85cm 3 sat clear transparent dish.
Triax perfect fit rigid multi bracket, 4 way Diseqc switch, Wall mount and instructions.
Unlike flexible difficult to set up, universal fit brackets, this is a dream to use as it is
well engineered and designed by Triax for their own TD dishes. We have tested this ourselves.
Using a Lacuna meter, a ground stand and Triax TD 78 with the Multi LNB kit.
They were set up it our testing area. It took 10 minutes to get prefect results from all
3 satellites including setting up the stand and dish! (Testing was done with the Fortec
star 5100 receiver) Location - Newcastle - UK 20 degree look angle means that on one dish,
Astra 2 (28E), Astra 1 (19E) and Hotbird (13E) can be received.
Narrow feedhorn LNBs are used so that satellites that are only 3 degrees apart can be received
if required. To summarize, it is possible to receive from Astra 2 to the Hotbird on one fixed dish.
(Could also be used for other combinations of satellites)
Also note that on the
mutibracket page there is a twin option so that a twin LNB can be put
in
the 28E position on the bracket so that a Sky Digital can be used as well as a CI receiver.
Here is an e-mail with photos from a
customer, 20th April 07.
I have some interesting photos which you might like. When I was making the arrangement
to get them 3 degrees apart, it was a most interesting exercise! It was, however, well
worth the effort. I have 13, 16, 19.2 and 23.5E all coming in strongly.
James in Brigg, North Lincolnshire.
Our comments - James has done a good job here. He has even made a
small modification. Notice the aluminum bar along the top of the LNBs to
improve rigidity.
QUESTION F3.
Will the Triax Multibracket for 28E, 19E and 13E work in France?
ANSWER F3.
See the
3 or 4 satellite system page (There is no issue
in the UK where the bracket works fine on an 80cm dish. - although in the
north a 90 is recommended) To receive Sky / 28E in France you need a 60cm in the North,
80cm by the time you get to Paris and a 90cm in the south and south west.
(We quote dish sizes to receive the lowest power channels like the BBC although smaller dishes
will work on a % of the channels but not the lowest power.) Astra and Hotbird are powerful
in France and probably only need a 60 for either. Using a 90cm dish and multibracket in the south
is then a problem as you are sharing the signal between 3 satellites and there is therefore a
drop in signal of maybe 3 to 6 dBs on LNBs not in the centre of the boom arm. (centred on 19E,
the 28E LNB is off-centre). It therefore follows that a bigger dish is needed to make up for
losses in a lower signal areas like France etc. A solution, in theory, might be the Triax 1.1m
dish which is also compatible with the multibracket but we have had no sales of that type
and hence no feedback from customers to confirm it works well in that area.
QUESTION F4.
When would you advise the use of a "monoblock type"
product for a two satellite fixed dish system?
ANSWER F4
Yes, our latest monoblocks fit in the 40mm LNB clamp and work very well.
These monoblocks are ideal for-
6 Degree monoblock - 19E and 13E
3 degree monoblock - 19E and 16E or 16E and 13E
4.3 degree monoblock - 9E and 13E
other combinations are possible. Some twin and quad monoblocks are also available.
See them on our
Monoblock page
QUESTION F5
I do not know anything about tuning satellite systems and am
tired of waiting for engineers to come out and do it for me. That is why I wish
to buy a digital sat finder, but at the same time I do not want to pay an arm and
a leg for one. Is the Digisat Pro any good or can you recommend something else.
I need to take into account that I may need to use it overseas in Europe.
Can you supply more information on the satellite meters you sell?
ANSWER F5
The are a number of satellite finder meters available. See,
the satellite meters
menu page
The
Satellite Finder kit. is a useful low cost meter kit.
Fine for setting up Astra 1 and the Hotbird. Not suitable for Sky Digital 28E
It includes a compass, battery box, fly lead and instructions.
The
Digisat meters work on fully digital satellites like Sky Digital at 28E. also
work on
all other digital satellites. Ideal for setting up a motorised or fixed dish system
Produce a audible tone & an LCD visual meter reading of signal strength. The "Pro" also offers
Diseqc switch testing and will check both LNBs at once in a 2 satellite Diseqc system.
Excellent meters & great value for money. Also very sensitive for detecting weak signals.
The
Teleco meter. Low cost meter that identifies the satellite. Ideal for
the caravaner
The
Sam-Lite meter. another low cost meter that identifies the satellite with many professional features.
Again ideal for the caravaner
The
Lacuna meters. Installers tools. Identifies 21 satellites. Digital read
out.
Built in battery. Charger included. Robust design. Carry case included. Ideal for setting
up a motorised dish Ideal for finding Sky Digital at 28 East Ideal for finding many other satellites.
The
Satcatcher meter. This very high quality meter identifies the
satellites, has a built in
TV, built in spectrum analyzer information, video output and easy flexible updating.
RV, Motorhomes and caravaners please note,
There are two types of customer,
1. A customer buying a satellite system for their home intending to fit it themselves.
This type of customer don’t mind spending an hour or so fiddling around with a sub £40
budget satellite meter as they know it is a one-off install and it is worth saving the
money and putting up with the inconvenience of a budget meter.
2. Professional installers and caravan users. These people want to set up real fast and
once assembled, a professional meter (cheapest at £147.50) takes only a few minutes to find the
satellite. Caravan users can set up and get on with there holiday without the frustration
of all the trial and error searching needed with budget meters.
Note. Some caravan users prefer not to take this advice and take only the budget meter.
A far proportion come back to us after their holiday with comments like
“yes you were right. – not going through that again – send me a decent meter”.
Also read the next question.
QUESTION F6
I do not know anything about tuning satellite systems and am
tired of waiting for engineers to come out and do it for me.
That is why I wish to buy a digital sat finder, but at the same
time I do not want to pay an arm and a leg for one. Is the Digisat
Pro any good or can you recommend something else. I need to take
into account that I may need to use it overseas in Europe.
ANSWER F6
For the price it is excellent. It works on all satellites including
fully digital (most low price meters will not and it gives signal strength
on a digital read out and a tone provides signal strength info as well.)
It also has other useful features but it cannot identify the satellite.
You have to check the TV to see if you are on the satellite you are looking for.
i.e. have a pre-tuned channel ready and see if it is there. If not try another satellite.
With experience it is possible to know which satellite is which just from signal
strengths as you learn that 19E and 13E are the two very powerful ones and so 28E
for example is just to the left of them ..... etc.
The Lacuna meter identifies the satellite. It will say things like
28E found or 13E found. It identifies many satellites and provides signal strength and quality.
However, it is more expensive. Also read the previous question above.
QUESTION F7
I want to have multiple satellite points around
the house and multiple receivers. I also want to
distrubute the TV from one receiver to all TVs how
can this be done.
ANSWER F7
There are two parts to this question.
Input
To provide many Sky or freesat dish points around the house you either need a quatro LNB on your
dish or a quatro LNB dish kit. see
dishes with quatro LNBs
and a 5 input multiswitch (multiswitches are usually situated in a loft or cupboard or central area.)
see
multiswitchs
The quatro LNB (with 4 outputs) feeds the multiswitch using 4 LNB cable - see
4 LNB
cable
Best to put two outlets in each room as it may be that twin tuner receivers
(record one channel and watch another) may be needed.
If so use the twin wall plates see
outlet plates then scroll down to the twin
units.
Use twin cable to each room. see
Twin cable
For (e.g.) 6 rooms a 12 output multiswitch would be used. Twin cable to each room.
An aerial can be fed into the 5th input of the multiswitch if required.
Using a wall plate which has a diplexer built in, two satellite points and an aerial point is available.
The UHF Aerial signal is added to the satellite signal by the multiswitch and goes down the
same wire as the satellite signal.
If two or three aerials are required e.g. TV, FM and DAB radio, a 3 way combiner can be fitted on the roof and
the one cable from that unit goes into the 5th input of the multiswitch. Again the appropriate wall plate is
needed to separate them all out again. see
multiswitch combiner
Standard Sky, Sky+ Sky HD freesat and freesat HDR and other receivers can then be connected
to the F connector wall plate.
Output.
distribution round the house needs a 2, 3, 4, 6 amp or (preferably) professional 8 way amp and cabling.
see
Professional 8 way amp and
Offer 1
but read the whole page.
This is to distribute TV from one receiver to other TVs around the house (one channel)
This can be done by feeding a cable from the room containing the sat receiver to the multiswitch location and
into the 3 way combiner then into the multiswitch.
However, the problem with this method is that the multiswitch will not permit the 9 volts to go through and
the TV Eye or omni link system to work for control.
It is better therefore to have a completely separate output system with separate cabling for the distribution system
This would mean 3 cables to each room, two for the satellite and one for the distribution. TV eyes for Sky receivers
Sky accessories
or omni link systems for freesat receivers etc.
see
omni link kit
(and a modulator is required - same page)
This will allow full control of the Sky or freesat system from all of the rooms.
MOTORISED DISH QUESTIONS
QUESTION M1
What do you think of Diseqc Motors?
ANSWER M1
This is where digital receivers now contain software to control a Diseqc motor (right hand side in photo) rather
than a hardware positioner board to control a standard 36V motor (left hand side in photo) motor.
There are, therefore two types of motors. Diseqc motors and 36 volt motors.
36 volt motors are designed for larger dishes. They inject more power down a separate cable.
We would recommend a Diseqc motor on dishes up to 90cm steel or 1.0m Aluminium as long as the
1.0m dish was not in a very exposed location. A Sheltered location would probably have a wall behind it
An exposed location would be a high pole above the gutter.
There are Diseqc motors with nylon gears and Diseqc motors with metal gears.
There is nothing wrong with nylon gears. Some big 36 volt motors on 2,4m dishes use nylon gears.
They are very quiet and strong. We have sold the Technomate 2100/2200/2300 with nylon gears
for many years with virtually no problems at all. Never see them again. Very reliable.
Some Diseqc motors use metal gears. Since a Diseqc motor cannot be made any larger as only the LNB
current is available to drive it, it can be made a little stronger with metal gears but they are a little noisier.
For that reason we would recommend Diseqc motors for 1.0m and 1.1m dishes.
For 1.2m and larger dishes, 36 volt motors should be used.
The Technomate TM-2300 and TM 2600 motors
The 2300 uses nylon gears and the 2600 uses metal gears.
Compared to other Diseqc motors, there is no noticeable play in the gearing in Technomate motors.
They also tend to be a little faster. They hang from above (like an elephant trunk) which makes
installation easier.
The problems with Diseqc motors and why the V box is so necessary with larger
dishes.
Diseqc is a development where digital receivers now contain software to control a Diseqc motor rather
than a five amp hardware positioner board to control a standard motor. The motor control works digitally
down the coax signal lead and a 4-wire control system is not required. Also the concept has become an
industry standard. Sounds good so far but what are the drawbacks?
1. The coaxial cable is designed to carry the signal from the LNB to the
satellite receiver. It is also designed to provide power to the LNB. The satellite receiver provides about
500 to 600 mA (0.6A) to power the LNB. Typically an LNB might draw about 300 mA. This leaves 200 to 300mA
(0.3A) to power up a Diseqc motor. Clearly a proper hardware (4 wire control system) positioner which
can provide up to (typically) 3 to 5 amps can drive better bigger, stronger, quicker motors.
With 300mA a Diseqc motor must be smaller. The only way a very smaller motor can move
a dish is by putting a large gearbox on the end of the motor to provide "leverage". This means that
a Diseqc motor moves more slowly from one satellite to another due to the large amount of gearing.
Diseqc motors should only be used on dish sizes that are within the ratings outlined above.
Our opinion of a recent conversation,
I was talking to another dealer the other day. He said he fits a Diseqc motor to the Andrews (Channel
Master) 1.2m dish face. The Channel Master is a heavy dish and the wind loads on a 1.2 can be massive.
In addition, this Channel Master dish is available with a wonderful heavy duty Channel Master
polar mount and actuator (or the big 15 Kg 1224 Supermount H to H motor.)
and yet this dealer fits a Diseqc motor to this large 1.2m dish face! (It is like ordering a
6.5 litre Rolls Royce from a dealer and saying "will you please fit a 1 litre engine before supplying it."
Unfortunately many dealers (and some magazines) are prepared to go down this route. What we need
is a bit of common sense. Why is wind load never considered? Every year we see numerous insurance claims.
Our recommendations.
For motorised use, The Diseqc motor works fine on steel dishes up to 90cm and aluminium dishes up to 1.0m
in "normal" locations. For larger dishes, or exposed locations (e.g. above the gutter on a high pole
or on the west coastline of Scotland or Ireland,) or for larger dishes use a V Box and a 36v motor.
Information from Jan 04
We have tested a new "Cryptic" Diseqc motor last weekend.
The reason for testing it was that for the first time a motor became available
that bolted onto the back of a 1.0m aluminum dish. Being a Diseqc motor
it was expected that it would still be slow (and it is) but this looked
very promising as the big problem of “universal fit – fits nothing properly
and slips in the wind had been overcome. We really wanted this solution
to work for us. It was set up with a Digiquest 8000 and using the USALS
facility all satellites were programmed in. Looked great.
However !
Taking hold of the edge of the dish, (at a distance of about 0.5m from the centre
Of rotation) there was play (movement) of about 7 mm. This was found to be in
The actual motor shaft between the rotating output shaft and the motor body
(i.e. in the gearbox) Looking at the shaft the movement was about 0.5 of a degree.
Now - last Saturday there were moderately winds (not gale force) and the dish
Moved on and off the satellite (no signal) every few seconds. Not a “peaky”
Low power satellite! We were on the Hotbird.
We contacted the supplier and were told that there is a certain amount of play
In all Diseqc motors as they use a worm drive to gear them down.
(small low current motor – large gearbox)
The only time you might get play in a 36 volt motor is when it has been used every
day for many years.
A typical e-mail. (Dated May 03)
Dear David,
Did not believe in UFOs until recently, when looking through my window I saw a UFO descend
vertically and crash. I soon found it was my 1.2 metre Channel Master dish, still firmly attached to top of
Jaeger mount, having left behind rest of mount, still on top of pole. If you will examine the
top plate of a 128, you will find it is held on by 4 small countersunk screws. In my case,
wind on dish had managed to tear the heads off inadequate sized screws. If you check 128
you will my point, that screws are too small.
Reply,
The 128 is a 36 volt motor but it is still too small a motor for the Channel Master 1.2m
as it only weighs 4 KG The correct motor (2 types) - both weigh 12 KG each
So nothing you say here is a surprise to us as we tell people that every day of the
week and follow other dealers insurance claims round. You should use the Channel
Master polar mount and 12 inch actuator or the 1224 motor with plate.
Update July 06
The Technomate TM-2200
We have tested the latest Technomate Diseqc motor and it is better than any previously tested
It works well with 90cm steel or 1.0m aluminium dishes and it does move faster than
other Diseqc motors. There is no noticeable play in the gearing.
We are therefore pleased to include it in our product range. Only dishes
on our site that fall within the size recommendations just noted are
available from us with this motor. For larger dishes or exposed
locations use a 36V motor.
Update Aug 09
The Technomate 2200 Diseqc motor has been further improved and is now the
2300.
Also see the new
Technomate 2600 motor.
Shown above is the new Technomate 2600 motor which uses metal gears.
This will make it produce slightly more noisy than the 2300 but will allow it to be used with bigger dishes.
The 2300 motor is an extremely reliable product with virtually zero returns or problems.
Using steel dishes up to 90cm and aluminium dishes up to 1.0m (as we advise) it is an excellent choice.
For 1.0m and 1.1m steel dishes this new 2600 motor would be a better choice. We do not recommended the
use of Diseqc motors (metal gears or otherwise) with 1.2m dishes or larger. Here larger 36 volt motors
should be used. It is interesting to note that the 36V 15Kg 1224 Jaeger motor that has been used on 1.2m
and 1.5m dishes for the past 15 years (with total reliability) uses nylon gears! There is more to this
subject than the material used to make the gears. A good way of assessing the capabilities of any motor
is the overall size and weight of a motor and here the 36 volt motor is the best option on larger dishes
no matter what claims a manufacturer might make!
QUESTION M2
What is a polar mount?
ANSWER M2
This is the part that turns with bearings top and bottom like track rod ends on a car's
steering. An actuator (motor) pushes the polar mount round. Dishes experience high wind
loads and even in normal use are moving back and forwards several times a day. The quality
of the polar mount and motor is extremely important. The design of a horizon to horizon
motor makes them inherently less able to withstand wind loads so it is important
for them to be even bigger / heavier duty than a polar mount for a given dish size.
Providing they are bigger, they are very good. Although most H to H motors go further
east & west than polar mounts, most satellites are within 30 degrees east to 30 degrees
west. Most polar mounts will easily cover this distance. It should by now be obvious
that one (e.g.) system can be very different from another when comparing prices.
You may not find out how poor a polar mount and motor (or H to H motor) is until you
have purchased it. Remember you need to ask the right questions. Its like buying a
car. You might ask the price of a Vauxhall Omega. There is a big difference between
a base model and the Omega Elite. About £15000 worth of difference! Some customers
however are not even as knowledgeable as this. They say "How much is a motorised system?
Its like saying how much is a car? Which car? Specify every item before comparing prices.
Become knowledgeable before you part with your money. Quality motorised systems
start at about £300. You cannot compromise where gale force winds are concerned.
Heavy duty polar mounts and actuators tend to be used on dishes of 1.2m or larger.
QUESTION M3
What is the difference between a
polar mount and an H to H motor.
ANSWER M3
Two ways of doing the same job but ....
Polar mounts are a little less expensive and cheaper to fix in the future.
To fix an H to H usually you have to replace the whole motor. You loose all
is the dish settings. An 12 inch 36V actuator costs £35 and can be changed
without removing the polar mount. Dish settings don't change.
Good polar mounts (including the Andrews) are inherently stronger than H to H motors of
the same size as the actuator pushes some distance out from the centre. The actuator is
also therefore better able to resist high winds than gears in the middle.
(lever law) although with a good (strong) H to H like a 1224 there is not much
difference. Also when you look at the massive 1224 Supermount H to H motor, it is so
heavy duty and over-rated it is stronger than many medium duty polar mounts!
H to H motors go further than polar mounts, + or - 70 degrees. Polar mounts should go
from 45 east to 45 west. (The length of the actuator is misunderstood relating to travel.
If the polar mount was pushed at, say, 75mm from the rotating centre, the dish would
travel further than if it was pushed at 150mm from centre, each for the same
actuator travel. Hence it's the total design of the polar mount that determines travel,
not just the stroke of the actuator. Many people put too large an actuator on their
dish when a smaller one will actually go so far that the dish would foul itself
before the actuator was fully extended.)
(See also question M7 below - more details in the answer.)
Dave.
QUESTION M4
Some companies include a free wall mount with a
motorised system. Why don't you?
ANSWER M4
This is a Safety Issue. If you were buying a car and a manufacturer offered a few pounds off
because it had a free braking system would you buy it? So - the cheapest possible parts were
used and there was a chance it would fail and cause an accident. BUT IT IS FREE!
It is very difficult to make customers understand that with some things in life,
PRICE IS NOT AN ISSUE, ONLY QUALITY IS. That is why for over 18 years we have designed
and manufactured our own fully welded heavy duty wall mounts and ground stands.
That is why, whilst we have been out to many insurance claims over the years
and they have always been caused by other peoples wall mounts breaking.
Like the dish that fell on top of the car in the drive in high winds. They were lucky!
It did not fall on a person. We have yet to see a decent commercially made wall mount,
We have seen wall mounts bolted into only two bricks and the whole kit on the ground
still with the two bricks still attached! The bricks were pulled out of the wall by the wind.
Some wall mounts are compromised by being flat pack able. Ours are heavy duty and held onto
the wall by 3 times as many bolts as most. Being fully welded they are bigger to ship,
but that is not important. Most wall mounts dealers use are T and K brackets.
(Because they do not have their own manufacturing resources and that is all they can get.)
These are designed for Aerials not satellite dishes. Dishes are a much bigger sail in the
wind. If you see a free wall mount, or one using 3 bolts to hold it up (ours use 10+)
or thin narrow metal then beware. We keep samples to show callers. All of the samples
have sheared in the wind and have been collected from insurance claims. It's up to you.
Our mounts are on our
the wall mounts and ground stands page.
We do not know whether in your situation you need a south facing mount, a mount with
a 2m pole to get the dish above the gutter,
or a ground stand. Therefore we have a
page dedicated to this requirement. All of the mounts are big heavy duty units.
QUESTION M5
Can I put Sky Digital or freesat all on the one motorised dish
as my CI motorised receiver?
ANSWER M5
Yes you can, using a twin output LNB and a second cable. BUT, is more flexible to have
2 dishes as then one channel from say Sky can be watched in one room and a different
channel in another. Or record one channel (copyright permitting) and watch another.
Also all of your eggs are then not in one basket. A fault on one system and the other
still works. Since the Sky mini dish is very small it is not easy to notice.
All on the one dish requires a twin LNB and again 2 cables. Each cable goes to each
receiver. There are many ways to connect the two receivers to the TV. One way is to
connect the Digigox to AV 1 with a scart lead. Then connect the motorised to AV2
on a second scart lead.
QUESTION M6
You seem to recommend the Technomate 6900 and Lyngbox
receiver for motorised use. What makes them so good compared
to other receivers on the market?
ANSWER M6
Many receivers simply do not have enough memory locations for all of the channels.
With a 1.0m motorised dish we can scan in over 9000 channels.
A 10,000 channel capability (minimum) is recommended. These receiver have this.
They also have advanced scanning capabilities, are easy to use and have many useful features.
See
Technomate 6900 and See
Lyngbox
QUESTION M7
Which satellites can be seen from the UK?
ANSWER M7
(See also question M3 above - more details in the answer.)
Satellites are in the "Clark" belt in geostationary orbit above the equator.
From the UK we see this as an arc in the southern sky.
The centre of this arc is approximately zero degrees. (It is exactly zero degrees
if you are on the Greenwich meridian which is a longitudinal line through the
Greenwich observatory in London.) Realistically we can see about 70 degrees east
of due south and 70 degrees west of due south before our horizon gets in the way.
So really the maximum arc we can see in the southern sky is about 140 degrees with
due south in the middle. With a motorised dish and a good motor 60 or 70 east to
60 or 70 west is possible providing a clear line of site is available.
The signal comes in at about 22 to 24 degrees to the horizontal in the centre
of the arc, but at the apex of the arc at say 70E or 70W it could be around
5 degrees to the horizontal so trees buildings and hedges even in
the distance could be in the way. Here in Europe we talk about satellites at 10E of
south or 30W of south but in the US for example, they will start to see satellites in
the mid Atlantic which will be about 70west and as you cross America to the west coast,
then into the Pacific, you would finally see up to 150 west from the west coast of America.
It follows that any satellites from 70 west onwards are below our western horizon.
A polar mount and actuator can usually span about 45 east to 45 west. With this type
of motor you can, if you wish, "pinch" a bit from one side to give to the other.
e.g 55 west to 35 east. The 1224 EL motor will go from 70E to about 30W as the inclined
orbit jack will restrict movement to the west. Most channels of interest are within 30E
to 30W anyway so all motors are fine and there are other factors to do with strength and
wind load that are more important to a motors design than whether it will go to
the extremes of the arc where there is little of interest anyway.
(See also question M3 above - more details in the answer.)
3/4 satellites on 1 fixed dish. Advice and feedback.
see
3/4 LNB systems and brackets
Advice - Using a Sky box as well.
If you look at the twin LNB option above at you will see this issue is dealt with.
i.e. Using a twin LNB in the 28E position, you could have the twin and 2 single
LNBs on 28E, 19E and 13E
Using the FTA / CI receiver on one output of the twin and the 2 single LNBs
all three satellites will then work on this receiver.
The second output of the twin could go to the Sky Digibox
Alternatively, without the twin option, the FTA / CI receiver could connect to 2 satellites,
19E and 13E. Then the Digibox to the 28E LNB
Either way, two cables must be brought into the house for the 2 receivers.
Advice - Using all four LNBs,
The Triax multisat dish kit can be used on any part of the Sky but in the UK the
common satellites to point it at are 28E, 19E and 13E (or 28E, 19E and 16E or 28E, 16E and 13E
but for these two options a 90cm dish is needed as 16E is a lower power satellite than the other
three satellites) We used to say you cannot get 28E, 19E, 16E and 13E as, even with narrow feed LNBs
you cannot get 3 satellites that are only 3 degrees apart. The narrow feed LNBs can
(unlike standard LNBs) get close enough together to get 19E and 16E or 16E and 13E - here
the LNBs must touch each other to do this. But to get 19E, 16E and 13E, with all three LNBs
touching each other, they are not close enough together. To put it another way, if you set up
one LNB on 19E and another LNB on 13E, a third LNB on 16E will not fit between the other two LNBs.
Therefore, used in this part of the sky for these satellites we used to say that three LNBs would be
used on 28, 19E and 13E and the fourth LNB would be a spare (it is part of the kit). Recently our engineer
did a little experiment. We should point out, however that this would invalidate the warrantee on three
of the LNBs! With a craft knife he shaved some plastic off the sides of the narrow feed LNBs to make
them narrower. The plastic is quite thick and so this is possible without going right through the casing.
He was then able to get 28E, 19E, 16E and 13E perfectly on a 90cm Triax dish.
Up to you!
Advice - using the Triax Multibracket in France.
(This is NOT an issue in the UK where the bracket works fine on an 80cm dish. - although in the
north a 90 is recommended)
To get Sky / 28E in France you need a 60cm in the North, 80cm by the time you get to Paris
and a 90cm in the south and south west.
(We quote dish sizes to receive the lowest power channels like the BBC although smaller dishes
will work on a % of the channels but not the lowest power.)
Astra and Hotbird are powerful in France and probably only need a 60 for either.
So using a 90cm dish and multibracket in the south is then a problem as you are sharing
the signal between 3 satellites and there is therefore a drop in signal of maybe 3 to 6 dBs
on LNBs not in the centre of the boom arm. (centred on 19E, the 28E LNB is off-centre)
It therefore follows that a bigger dish is needed to make up for losses in a lower signal areas like France etc.
A solution, in theory, might be the Triax 1.1m dish which is also compatible with the multibracket
but we have had no sales of that type and hence no feedback from customers to confirm it works well in that area.
Also note that on the mutibracket page there is a twin option so that a twin LNB can be put in the 28E position
on the bracket so that a Sky Digital can be used as well as a CI receiver.
Advice - using the Triax Multibracket in Spain.
CUSTOMER FEEDBACK Feb 07.
Good morning,
Having spent a lot of time visiting your site, I would like to pass on some information to you regarding an
installation that I have finally sorted out.
I live on the Costa Brava in the town of Roses; and for some time wanted to view Astra 1 and 2
using the same dish- despite attempting a motorised system and two separate dishes, I was never
able to see both the Spanish Digital + system on Astra 1 and the FTA channels on Astra 2 well enough.
So I purchased a Triax 110cm dish, a multi lnb bracket, and a VisionNet FCIS 7000 reciever. I now have
over 300 FTA channels on Astra 2, all the Spanish system, and the added bonus of all the new Spanish
freeview system. It has a taken a little bit of patience, but as now I have 95% signal quality on
the FTA channels on Astra 2 ( in fact, better than Astra 1 at about 75-80%), I am more than happy.
I know that you have requested any feedback regarding Triax and their multi-lnb bracket; well, please
advise all those who are thinking about purchasing or installing, that here in northeast Spain, the
results are spectacular.
Thank you for your time, keep up the good work.
Regards,
Patrick
Feedback from Ireland
Feedback. I got a 90cm Triax Dish, Diseqc switch and multi-arm bracket from you last year
and it is working a dream in Dublin - I use 3 of the LNBs for Hotbird, Astra 1 and Astra
2/Eurobird.
By the way, when setting up the multi-arm I found that the maximum 'tilt' of the arm was
quite limited and was insufficient to get a good signal from the 3 satellites.
Must be the vertical angles in Dublin! I had to do a bit of cutting/scraping to
increase the tilt but it works great now (~80-90 signal from Astra 1 & Hotbird
and over 90% with Astra 2). Regards, Dominic
Advice - using the Triax Multibracket with other dishes.
Over the last 10 years we have tried a number of universal 20 degree kits and none of them worked
properly - producing very low signal on all satellites - often flexible plastic and poorly made.
In 2005 Triax introduced the multibracket kit for the range of TD dishes.
We were skeptical but we tested it and it worked well.
Please note the following,
The Triax Mulibracket.
It is a precision engineered aluminum extrusion design.
It fits the Triax Boom arm and not other arms.
The design program was to match the arm to the dish so that they work properly together.
1000s sold and customers know they work
It may work properly on other dishes and will not fit anyway.
That is not to say that if you put your mind to a modification to make
if fit other dishes that this could not be done. Anything can be achieved
with a little work and skill but we certainly cannot comment on whether
a DIY mod will provide good results.
BUT
After 6 months of work and testing we have adapted it to our clear transparent 85cm
dish and it works very well. This modified unit is now available and good feedback
has come in from users. See
2, 3 or 4 satellites on 1 fixed dish
Problems of using more than one diseqc switch
with multiple LNBs
One our web site you will find 2, 3 and 4 LNBs on one fixed dish
See
2, 3 or 4 satellites on 1 fixed dish
You will also find options for the fitting of a twin or quad LNB as a substitution
with ONE of the 3 or 4 LNBs so that a popular satellite can go to several receivers.
e.g. putting a twin or quad in the 28E position so that a Sky digibox or Sky + can
be connected as well as the CI receiver to that LNB That means the CI receiver and the
Sky box both are connected to 28E but the CI receiver is also connected to other
satellites through ONE diseqc switch.
You will not find on our site 2.3 or 4 satellite kits with twin or quad LNBs and
more than one diseqc switch to either two receivers or a twin tuner receiver.
REASON.
Whilst it should all work in theory, in practice
(depending on the combination of switch positions) you can get no signal on a
satellite when it should all work. This is because twin LNBs and Quad LNB should
be fully connected to work properly. It may be OK to connect to two outputs of a quad
but you have to experiment to find out which two. With a twin, one side has a good
connection to the internal power supply circuit and the other is almost like a passive
device and relies on power from the second receiver to work properly
If you connect two or more diseqc switches, they take power away from some of the
outputs of the twin or quad LNBs (depending on the switching at the time) and
things go wrong.
IS THERE A SOLUTION?
Yes there is - a new solution - but quite expensive. It will be on our site soon as
an option on all of the twin tuner receiver pages eventually but see it at
multiswitches
The 9 in and 6 out and the 17 in an 6 out ...etc. This is a product designed to
do the job. Quatro LNBs must be used but all the switching is done inside the unit
and there are no power issues