What does a satellite system consist of?
1. A satellite receiver.
2. A dish kit consisting of a dish, an LNB (see below for more details) and a wall mount.
(mounts the dish on the wall.)
3. Cable and connectors that connect between the dish and receiver.
(Some fixed dish systems may use more than one LNB on a bracket.)
(Motorised systems use a different type of receiver and a motor bolted to the back of the dish.)
All system use a simple armchair remote control method of selecting channels.
4. Some satellite systems may also need methods of decoding scrambled channels.
i.e. cards and cams (see below for more details)
The satellites are all in the southern sky and need a clear line of sight from the dish
Just like light, the signal will not go through solid objects, however, again, just like
light, it will go through glass (with a small amount of attenuation.)
What is an LNB ?
An LNB is the box of electronics on the end of the dish boom arm. It acts like a aerial masthead
amplifier. The signal (microwaves) reflects off the dish and into the feedhorn to the LNB.
Here it is amplified and the frequency is lowered. The lower the noise figure the better.
i.e. in simple terms, it pulls in the signal better. The signal is then sent down the coaxial cable to the
satellite receiver. Quality digital cable should be used. (not CT100 or RG6)
See our
Install Page for good digital cable.
How big a dish do I need?
For Sky TV a mini dish works but a 60cm gives "all weather" capabilty.
For a 2 or 3 satellite system, e.g. Astra 1, 2 and Hotbird an 80 or 90cm is recommended.
For motorised use, good results can be obtained from a number of satellites with an 80cm dish
in the UK, even better results are possible with a 90cm or 1.0m dish. These provide
significantly more signal and all-weather capability from most satellites.
For dish sizes for Sky TV from Spain see
The "Sky in Spain" Page
For dish sizes for Sky TV from France see
The caravan Page
About digital satellite. Free to air and cams.
The most common digital system is MPEG 2. A digital system usually has a universal LNB.
Digital receiver are either free to air, Free to air with an embedded cam (decoder) or free to
air and with 1 or 2 Common Interface (CI) CAM slots. Some receivers have embedded cams and 2 slots.
A CAM is a Conditional Access Module equivalent to an analogue decoder.
A motorised system once again offers the most upgradable options for the future as
channels that can be decoded using the CI system are available from many satellites and
a motorised dish is required to find all of these thousands of channels. Smart cards for
some digital channels are also required. The card slides into the CAM and the CAM into
the receiver. If the receiver has an embedded cam, the card slides straight into the
card reader. 80cm, 90cm & 1m dishes are usually big enough for most digital channels.
Original cams and cam emulators.
There are two types of CI cams,
Original cams. E.G. Irdeto, Via Access, Conax, Mediaguard (Seca 1 and 2), Cryptoworks ... etc.
Cam emulators, E.G. Magic, Matrix, Axis, Dragon .... etc.
They can take the form of separate CI cams or embedded cams.
When an original official card is used (E.G. adult channels and other official cards) an original
CAM should be used - not a cam emulator if trouble free viewing is required.
Cam emulators are used by people who want to load them with software "patches" that they find on the
internet but often many of them will emulate many CI scrambling systems in the one cam. They may work
fine with an official card but often they will not "kick start" an official card on a years
subscription and if the card were to go off during the year (this cam happen if a security upgrade
code is not received due to not viewing the channel for a while) they often will not re-start the card.
Therefore for computer related uses they may well be fine but they are far from ideal with official cards.
Unusually, Technomate do a CI receiver called a 5400 with a "multi cam" embedded in it.
This cam is supposed to work on many systems with official cards. From feedback we have found that it
works well. See
the Technomate page.
Also note that there can even be problems with official cams mainly in the Cryptoworks system.
Here the card provider can match the card number to the serial number of the cam and so any cam will not work.
One way round this is to use a Technomate 5400. with embedded multicam
The embedded cam seems to work with any Crypoworks card.
Can one satellite channel be recorded while watching another?
You have to be careful of the copyright laws here but some people participate in
"Time Shifted Viewing" using a video recorder or hard drive. There may also be the need
to watch one channel in one room and another in another room. This is all possible with the
addition of a second satellite receiver and a TWIN LNB fitted to the dish.
OR a satellite receiver containing twin tuners. For Sky TV a Sky + can be used (see
Sky+) to
record one channel while watching another but an additional receiver would be needed
to watch two channels in two different rooms. For free to air satellite or CI channels
a twin tuner CI receiver can be used. See
Twin Tuner receivers
Advice on recognizing quality products that work well.
FIXED DISHES.
Generally speaking the is one rule that tends to help a great deal in sorting the great
mass of products on the market. The dredded "universal fit" product.
Another description of "universal fit" is "doesn't fit anything properley.
Products should be designed to work together.
Astra 1 and Hotbird kits.
Here the best results are obtained when the dish manufacturer makes the bracket that holds
the two LNB holder for their own dish. Only buy a universal fit 2 LNB bracket if you already
have the dish, and the dish is of unknown make. But if the idea is to buy a dish and dish LNB kit,
buy products from the same manufacturer so that they work together well.
Good examples of this are the Astra and Hotbird dish kits and Funke dish kits
which include dish, bracket, LNBs and diseqc switch. See
The fixed dishes page
Astra 1, Astra 2 and Hotbird kits.
We have tested universal fit brackets for the last 15 years and have never found one
that worked well enough to stock it. Then Triax brought out an extremely well made product that
was designed for the Triax range of TD dishes. We tested it and is worked well - even on an 80cm dish.
Astra 2 (The satellite with Sky TV on and the BBC, Astra 1 and Hotbird all worked really well.
see
The 4 LNB bracket system page
MOTORISED DISHES.
Generally speaking the is one rule that tends to help a great deal in sorting the great
mass of products on the market. The dreaded "universal fit" product.
Another description of "universal fit" is "doesn't fit anything properly.
Products should be designed to work together.
At the budget end of the market it is very important not to go too cheap. The motorised
dish has to be capable of withstanding high wind loads and some low cost products are
not capable of doing this reliably. It is easy to recognize this type of product. A number
of manufacturers make universal fit upgrade motors that are not designed for any particular dish.
These can be recognized by the fact that in addition to fitting on the main wall mount pole,
the rotating output of the motor is also a (narrower) pole that a dish can clamp to with U
clamps. It other words, because it was not designed for a particular dish, it does not
properly bolt onto the back of the dish with proper fixings into the dishes back plate.
The result of this is that in high winds the dish can slip on this narrower rotating pole.
We know of some products that need resetting at least once per month! One notable exception
is the Jeager 99G H to H motor where the rotating pole is quite thick and the motor is well built.
and the Technomate Diseqc motor which is the strongest available.
It is still not an ideal way to attach a dish but this combination works reasonably well providing
the dish size does not exceed 90cm. The second way to recognize junk is to try to judge the quality
of construction of the polar mount or H to H motor and feel the weight of it. The excellent 1224
H to H motor for dishes of 90cm, 1.0m, 1.2m and greater (see below) if picked up in it's box,
is heavy enough to think twice about lifting it! It costs £179.00. Budget motors cost (perhaps)
about £80. You get what you pay for. There are some budget motors that are quite well designed
and do bolt properly onto the back of a dish and the Triax polar mount and straight actuator is one example.
We class this as medium duty. There are few motors of the secondary rotating pole type that
can be recommended (light duty.) The medium duty Jaeger 99G is probably the best of this type.
There are usually other options. If you are buying a complete system, why buy an small
upgrade (rotating pole) motor with a narrow pole prone to slippage as part of the kit.
(Many dealers make them part of the kit.) Ask the right questions when you buy and avoid the junk.
Buy a motor that is either made by the same manufacturer as the dish and hence properly bolts
onto the back plate of the dish. Or buy from a manufacturer that has made a motor for a particular
dish and again bolts properly on the back. Look at the polar mount / motor critically and judge
whether it has been well engineered. Would you buy a car that looks as if it would break down as
soon as it is driven round the corner? Why buy a motor that looks like it will break or slip in
high winds? Apply the same logic to the design of the very important wall mount. Unless a company
manufacturers their own (purpose built for satellite dishes) wall mounts, most commercially
made units are also very. poor because they are designed for aerials not dishes. We have been
to countless insurance claims. Most commercially made wall mounts are designed for aerials not
dishes and some that are designed for dishes are not strong enough to put and 80cm on.
Mounts should be big enough to cover a large area of brickwork. The Vision wall mounts for 80cm to 1.2m
dishes are held up with 10 coach bolts into the brickwork. There are two things which should
make alarm bells ring. A "Free" wall mount with the system. This is likely to be useless.
A wall mount with only 3 or 4 bolt fixing. OK for a 60cm but nothing larger. The final thing
to check is the thickness and material of the pole. It should be Steel not alloy and the
steel should be at lease 3mm thick. We have seen 1mm thick poles snap in high winds and the
whole rig on the ground. To conclude, use your judgment to choose well engineered heavy-duty
products. Cheap junk will always cost you more in the long run. If a dealer offers a
complete (e.g.) Manhattan system or Topfield system remember that only Manhattan and
Topfield receiver may be included. The dish and motor could be made by anyone and the dealer
could be including junk to get the price down. Never buy a system without knowing the
make of every component in it. Would you buy a Vauxhall Vectra car and caravan combination
without first checking what kind of caravan is included in the deal? Dishes with motors
start at about £150 and go up to £500 for an 80/90cm. If the dealer does not say what
kind of dish and motor is included with the package, do you think it will be a good one
or (more likely) a cheap piece of junk so that a tempting price can be offered? These
dealers rely on the fact the customer does not know enough to tell the difference until it is
too late. They are the same type of dealer that are difficult if not impossible to deal
with once you have spent your money. There is nothing wrong with comparing prices as long as
you know exactly what you are getting for your money and you have avoided dealers where back
up in the future may be a problem.
Update - The Technomate TM-2200
We have tested the latest Technomate Diseqc motor and it is better than any previously tested
It still suffers from being universal fit, only 2.5 Kg and so not recommended with steel
dishes larger than 90cm or aluminum dishes over 1.0m but it does move faster than
other Diseqc motors and there is no noticeable play in the gearing.
We are therefore pleased to include it in our product range. Only dishes
on our site that fall within the size recommendations just noted are
available from us with this motor. For larger dishes or exposed
locations use a 36V motor.
What is a motorised system ?
It's a system that offers hundreds of channels (typically about 8000+) by armchair remote control.
Channels from many satellites. Many are scrambled and may need subscription cards but around 400+
channels are free to are (clear - Europe). There are English speaking channels and the ability to
watch the world. Also if a channel moves to another satellite simply move the dish.
Choosing a motorised system, read on,
As an independent dealer with no connections with any manufactures we can offer unbiased advice. We do not
stock products we have found to be of poor quality or do not offer good value for money.
We believe very strongly in heavy duty products with proven reliability. A motorised system comprises
a receiver, a dish, a polar mount and motor (or Horizon to Horizon motor) an LNB and a wall mount.
You may well find (partly unspecified) systems cheaper than those quoted (and specified in detail) in
this catalogue, but don't be deceived. Find out which dish, which LNB and most importantly which
polar mount & motor is included in the package. Are the moving parts of inferior quality? What kind
of wall mount is available? Is the wall mount and dish capable of surviving gale force winds?
If a free wall mount is offered beware. A heavy duty unit is unlikely to be included free of charge.
Wall mounts.
Ever since we started over 15 years ago many we have been dissatisfied with commercially made wall
mounts. For this reason and right from the start we decided to manufacture our own. Most commercially
made wall mounts are either too small, do not cover a large enough area, do not use enough fixings, are made of
light weight materials or are compromised to make them pack flat. Our wall mounts are full
welded heavy duty units. See the difference and be sure of long term reliability.
See
The wall mount and ground stand page
Finding a good dealer.
Did you know there are some dealers who have a stock answer to technical questions?
That answer is
"READ THE MANUAL".
If price is the only consideration, sooner or later you may find "box shifting" dealers like this.
If so we wish you luck. You will need it! Why not check out our
Support Page
It is not easy to find a good dealer but there are a few suggestions to help you.
1. Has the dealer been authorized by any manufacturers to sell their products? Ring the manufacturer,
they may have a list. But it must be a list due to vetting. Many lists are not due vetting schemes for
most products. Pace have a dealer list but to vetting schemes so the list does not help.
2. Check if the dealer have any qualifications or certificates of membership of professional
associations? Be careful with some qualifications as a Sky Digital qualification means a dealer has
been trained to fit Sky Digitals. It does not mean they know much about motorised systems.
3. How long has the dealer been established?
This in itself is not a sign of a good dealer but it helps build up a picture.
4.Can you get hold of someone on the end of the phone or via e-mail that understands technical questions
at most times of the day? Or, do you get an answerphone, or a salesperson that has no idea what they are
talking about? If this is the case when you enquire about products then it will certainly be the case
when you have paid your money. You may find (when it is too late) that no amount of cost cutting offers are worth this
kind of aggravation. Check also whether e-mail back up is also available. In particular do they answer
there e-mails? Many do not!
5 Does the dealer sell products that look like they are heavy duty? (See polar mounts, H to H motors,
and wall mount advice above) A good sign is if the dealer manufactures their own heavy duty wall mounts
and ground stands.
Let us consider how we at measure up against these guidelines.
1. We are authorized dealers for many of the main manufacturers
2. The owner of Vision has a degree in Electronics. We have "Eurosat" motorised qualifications dated
1989. We have Sky Digital certificates. As far as professional associations are concerned we are
"Master Members of the Institute of Videography" We are the producers of The Motorised Satellite training videos.
These have been recommended by BBC training
We are authorized suppliers to the BBC.
3. Vision International was established in 1991, 14 years ago. AVS started in 1989
(and is still in existence, i.e video production) and in those early days satellite was
part of AVS. Hence the satellite qualifications in 1989.
4. Advice is available during the day and on Saturdays on the phone and after hours via e-mail
We do not close for annual holidays although we do close on bank holidays.
5. We only sell quality products which is why there are omissions in our catalogue.
As independent satellite dealers we are free to select products that we believe in and that we can
fully support. In addition we manufacture our own heavy-duty wall mounts and ground stands.
An interesting letter from a customer who commissioned "an installer from Hell"
Here is an interesting letter we received on the 27th March 2000
Dear Sir,
You did a site survey for me, (Vision note - about three weeks earlier) and gave me a price for
a satellite installation, the following day a friend at the pub said "don't get a Manhattan
receiver" I asked why, he said they were prone to faults,
(Vision comment. From all of the Manhattans 2500s we have sold since January 00 when it was
introduced till January 01 when it was discontinued, we have only ever had one faulty unit
which had a dry joint on the circuit board) I know nothing about them and assumed he did, he suggested a
Humax receiver. I have had that many views and didn't know whose advice to take. I plumped for the
first person in the satellite book, it was …. NAME WITHHELD…….he said he could set the whole
thing up.
First day - parts didn't turn up
2nd day - instructions didn't turn up
3rd day men didn't turn up
4th day awaiting further parts
The men could not do the job with the parts, I told ….NAME WITHHELD …to take it down and I'll forget
the whole thing, the man you sent (Vision note. We sent an engineer) knew everything and did
a good job, (Vision comment, nobody knows everything but it's a nice compliment) it was up and
running the same day. I regret now not using you from the beginning. I am sending you the Humax
receiver to tune in (Vision note i.e. download all channels and provide a print out of the lists)
he (Vision note, "he" the sales person from the mail order company) said you would come and
set the whole thing up, he said you would bring a scart lead, any tuning in fee you require,
he said he would take car of the cost as I have paid the original price, sorry for any inconvenience
You can arrange a time that suites you on the above number.
Yours faithfully
NAME WITHHELD
Tyne and Wear
Vision comments,
There are a number of issues to address as a result of this experience. Let us first explain that
we were contacted by this non-local mail order company who we would like to stress ARE a
reputable company and were very willing to pay us to sort out the mess. Unfortunately they had
commissioned a local North East company (who often have an advert in the magazines) to install the
system and this company made a complete dogs dinner of the whole installation. Whether this was
malice or complete ignorance and lack of ability is uncertain. Let us tell explain what our
engineer found when he arrived at the customers house.
1. The Sky digital dish should have been fixed to the mount by 4 bolts. It was loose due
to being held by one bolt and a bent nail!
2. The other end of the signal cable had no F connector fitted and was not plugged into the Digibox.
3. The motorised dish was going east when west was pressed on the remote due to the polarity
being the wrong way round.
4. The motorised dish was not picking up any satellites, as it was not tracking the arc.
When it should have been pointing at 1 degree west (i.e. in the Apex position) it was pointing at
10 degrees east. This means it was out by a mile!
5. The motor cable should have had a reasonable rating. (e.g. 5 amps) They had used the
thin BT indoor telephone cable! Anyway our engineer sorted all of the faults and both the
Sky digi and the analogue motorised system were working within one and half-hours.
The customer was however still left with a number of problems. We were not aware of the
fact that a Humax digital had to be connected. (Indeed the mail order company had not asked us to
set up a Humax) This is why we had to return. The mail order company then asked us to program
it and install it. The biggest problem is the wall mount. On The Motorised Satellite Video Volume 3
we show the same commercially made wall mount made of light weight thin materials with provision
for only three coach bolts. One to the left, one to the right and one to the bottom.
(Vision mounts use 10) we also show on the video where the mount has sheered in the wind since it was
part of an insurance job last year. We have been asked to sort out two insurance claims from
people who have used this type of mount and then had it break in high winds.
Now let us examine why we recommended a Manhattan and not a Humax.
You probably know from looking at other pages on this site that we sell and have a very high regard
for the Humax receivers. The fact is that the Humax makes an ideal addition to an EXISTING
analogue motorised system. The disadvantage however is that two remotes have to be used. One
to move the dish on the existing system and then one to select the channel on the Humax.
If you are starting fresh why buy this inconvenience? Better to buy a fully integrated all in the
one box, all on the one remote, reliable, easy to use The Manhattan analogue and digital
motorised receiver contains a full 5A hardware postioner. (so does the Strong and the Echostar)
Even though we were able to get everything working for this customer, what was he left with?
A wall mount, which could come down in high winds, a universal fit small dish motor, poor
wiring, and an obsolete analogue motorised receiver with a separate digital and two remote controls.
Update Nov 01. The Humax can now be used with a V Box (see page link below) to make it fully
automatic on one remote and the V Box injects 3 A so that heavy duty motors can be used.
We really don't buy the man in the pub story. A more likely scenario is that price was his
only consideration. Did he "save" £100.00. Perhaps he paid £500 instead of £600? What really
happened was that instead of saving £100 he wasted much of the £500! Quite frankly the Humax
is a good machine but the rest was junk.
If you e-mail us,
We receiver well over 100 e-mails per day and we do try to answer them.
On a busy day it may be that the answer will be in the evening as often we catch up with mails from a
home computer. If the phone is ringing every few minutes during the day,
answering e-mails may be delayed.
There are some mails we will respond to with a "set answers",
If the mail is covered by an FAQ, you will directed to the FAQs on these advice pages.
If you require support on a product you have purchased from us and have not
included an invoice number we will ask for it before providing support.
If you have bought a product elsewhere, you should contact that company for support
and not us. We look after our customers, not other peoples.
There are some e-mails we will not answer.
E-mails that are not in English are immediately deleted.
Answering 100s of e-mails takes time and working out what "text language" all means is something
we do not have time to do. We only answer questions in English. Text language
e-mails will be deleted.
We are a SATELLITE company. Questions about aerials, or cable (e.g. NTL) will not be answered.
We do not sell products for cable users. Contact your cable provider.
We do not provide advice on “internet via satellite.”
We do not provide advice on satellite computer cards.
We do not provide advice on "card programming" or card programmers.
(Questions from the USA) We do not provide advice on systems to unscramble US channels.
If you would like advice about receiving a particular channel, you must state which
satellite it is on (there are over 4000 channels in the sky) and include where you live (which country)
if we are to advise on dish sizes etc.
If you are asking several questions and e-mails are going back and forwards
between you and us, you must include all of the e-mail history below from the previous e-mails.
You cannot expect us to remember your exact circumstances from one mail
to another. We rely on the history to be able to remember your circumstances.
Many companies simply do not answer their e-mails. We try to answer all of ours with the exception
of the categories above. If you send a mail and it is not answered
it may have been accidentally deleted. This can happen as we receive (as I am sure you do)
large amounts of junk mail every day and it is possible that a genuine mail may be accidentally
deleted among the junk mail. If you think that has happened please send it again.
We do try to answer all genuine e-mails.
Link to our own satellite museum site
Rewind Museum. A Museum of vintage consumer electronics.
See
http://www.rewindmuseum.com/vintagesatellite.htm
For old Satellite receivers with knobs on! (and other historic items)
And
Vintage reel to reel video recorders. Vintage VHS and Betamax VCRs.
Vintage video cameras. Vintage Laser Disc. Vintage Computers.
Old telephones, Old brick mobile phones. Vintage Hi Fi, Old reel
to reel audio and early audio cassette decks. Including,
The history time line of vintage consumer electronics.
And much more .....
So see,
http://www.rewindmuseum.com/home.htm
It is well worth a visit.
Only The Satellite Superstore brings you great products,
advice and it's own MUSEUM
(All prices on this page include VAT.)
Links to site pages,
Advice
Support
TrainingVideos
Multiswitches
Museum
Reviews
Links
Contact Us
SKY receivers & systems
SKY accessories
Other accessories
Installation equipment
Meters
Wall mounts & ground stands
Dishes
Transparent dishes
Full systems
Motorised systems.
2, 3 or 4 satellites on 1 fixed dish
BBC systems
Audio Video
Budget receivers
Blind search receivers
Receivers with hard drives
Twin tuner PVR receivers
High Definition Receivers
Manhattan
Topfield
Phoenix
Dreambox
Technomate
Humax
Fortec Star
Pace
Vantage
Kathrein
USA sales
More receivers
Caravan products
Diseqc switches
LNBs
Feedhorns
Motors
V Box
Positioners
Adult cards
CAMs
All products index
Links to menu pages,
Catalogue Contents Page. A summary of all pages. More products.
ADVICE Pages. Frequently Asked Questions. (FAQs) Read and learn!
Menu pages.
Sky menu page.
Satellite systems menu page.
Satellite receivers menu page.
Satellite dishes
Clear transparent dishes
High definition receivers menu page.
LNB (and feedhorns) menu page.
Motorised systems menu page.
Enthusiast blind search receiver menu page.
Manhattan menu page.
Humax menu page.
Technomate menu page.
Topfield receivers menu page.
Dreambox receivers menu page.
Pace receivers menu page.
Triax dishes, LNBs & brackets menu page.
3/4 satellite fixed dish menu page.
Small satellite items menu page.
Audio video products
Review centre menu page.
Index of all products menu page.
Links to pages with more detail,
Catalogue Contents Page. A summary of all pages. More products.
ADVICE Pages. Frequently Asked Questions. (FAQs) Read and learn!
Sky Digital.
The Sky Digital receivers / systems / mini dishes / accessories. The Pace DS440N. The Sky Plus.
Sky Digital accessories handsets, TV eyes, distribution around the house, wireless, offers, leads, etc.
Sky Digital dishes and LNBs single, twin & 4 out LNBs, Zones 1 & 2 mini dishes & larger dishes.
Sky Digital in Spain. 1.0m, 1.2m, 1.8m and 2.4m dishes for Spain. Satellite meters for Spain.
Satellite dishes,
Dish menu page
LNB menu page
Sky dishes
Wall mounts
Ground stands
Feedhorns
FIXED,
Sky
Triax 60,80,90cm,1.1m
2.4m
Andrews (Ch Master)90cm, 1.0m 1.2m,1.8m
Transparent 60,85cm
MOTORISED,
Triax 80, 90cm,
Transparent 85cm
Funke 1.0m
Andrews (Channel Master) 90cm, 1.0m, 1.2m, 1.8m
OTHER,
Sky mini dishes
All-weather Sky dishes
Sky dishes for Spain
3/4 satellite dishes
Dish motors
Caravan dishes
Terrestrial PVR receivers,
Topfield TF5800 160Gb & 250 Gb
Humax 9200T 160Gb
Satellite & Terrestrial,
Topfield TF5400T 250 Gb PVR
Vantage x221tsci blind search combo.
Technomate TM-6900 HD Combo.
Vantage HD 7100TS blind search combo.
Contacting us.
Tel. (UK) 01207 544664 and 01207 544224
International Tel. + 44 1207 544664.
If you are ringing us about a product you have already purchased, you should ring the support line on your invoice.
Before sending questions via e-mail please check-out our
Frequently asked questions as this could save time.
If you have any questions & comments regarding this site's content, please ....
contact us by e-mail.
(We only accept questions in English (no text language). We do not open attachments.)
Questions about faults or returns must include an invoice number or order number & date of purchase.
Technical questions are not a problem but questions about "channels" should be checked out first with
the satellite providers. Links to the satellite providers web sites are on our
Links Page
Copyright © 2008 Vision International. All rights reserved.